1 00:00:11,419 --> 00:00:09,290 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:11,429 with well-known author and consciousness 3 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:14,490 Explorer Peter Russell what this 4 00:00:19,370 --> 00:00:17,130 mind-brain duality this consciousness 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:19,380 issue really says is that you know what 6 00:00:24,050 --> 00:00:22,050 we really can't measure things the way 7 00:00:26,179 --> 00:00:24,060 that we thought we could consciousness 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:26,189 is absolutely fundamental without 9 00:00:30,019 --> 00:00:28,410 consciousness there'd be no science you 10 00:00:32,810 --> 00:00:30,029 could say it's the fundamental tool of 11 00:00:33,530 --> 00:00:32,820 science and yet is totally ignored by 12 00:00:47,660 --> 00:00:33,540 science 13 00:00:51,450 --> 00:00:49,860 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 14 00:00:53,819 --> 00:00:51,460 controversial science with leading 15 00:00:56,219 --> 00:00:53,829 researchers thinkers and their critics 16 00:00:59,459 --> 00:00:56,229 I'm your host Alex Icarus and on this 17 00:01:02,099 --> 00:00:59,469 episode Peter Russell joins us Peter is 18 00:01:03,779 --> 00:01:02,109 a well-known author and thinker among 19 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:03,789 people who are interested in human 20 00:01:08,460 --> 00:01:06,490 consciousness in science it was a great 21 00:01:12,149 --> 00:01:08,470 pleasure to talk to him here's my 22 00:01:14,669 --> 00:01:12,159 dialogue today we welcome well-known 23 00:01:17,370 --> 00:01:14,679 author teacher and consciousness 24 00:01:19,770 --> 00:01:17,380 Explorer Peter Russell - skeptic Oh 25 00:01:23,430 --> 00:01:19,780 Peter's books include the global brain 26 00:01:26,070 --> 00:01:23,440 waking up in time and from science to 27 00:01:28,309 --> 00:01:26,080 God there are so many interesting things 28 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:28,319 we might like to talk about today so 29 00:01:33,539 --> 00:01:31,810 let's get right to it Peter thank you so 30 00:01:35,730 --> 00:01:33,549 much for joining me on skeptic oh and 31 00:01:38,809 --> 00:01:35,740 welcome it's lovely to be with you you 32 00:01:42,389 --> 00:01:38,819 know I have to say you know the term 33 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:42,399 pioneer gets thrown around a lot but 34 00:01:46,410 --> 00:01:44,350 when it comes to your work with 35 00:01:49,109 --> 00:01:46,420 consciousness science in particular the 36 00:01:51,869 --> 00:01:49,119 intersection of this idea of 37 00:01:54,150 --> 00:01:51,879 consciousness and spirituality you 38 00:01:57,029 --> 00:01:54,160 really are a pioneer I mean you were in 39 00:01:59,699 --> 00:01:57,039 this so early what tell us a little bit 40 00:02:02,550 --> 00:01:59,709 about that background and how you became 41 00:02:04,410 --> 00:02:02,560 how you came to be such a prominent 42 00:02:07,889 --> 00:02:04,420 teacher writer and really put yourself 43 00:02:09,570 --> 00:02:07,899 out there in this area yes I mean I 44 00:02:11,250 --> 00:02:09,580 think I think I became prominent just 45 00:02:13,020 --> 00:02:11,260 because as you say I was in there very 46 00:02:17,220 --> 00:02:13,030 early on when very few people were 47 00:02:19,550 --> 00:02:17,230 thinking this way and it came out of a 48 00:02:23,190 --> 00:02:19,560 mixture of things in me I was a 49 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:23,200 scientist by inclination and by training 50 00:02:27,750 --> 00:02:25,450 I'd gone to Cambridge University in 51 00:02:28,979 --> 00:02:27,760 England studying mathematics you know 52 00:02:31,530 --> 00:02:28,989 probably all the best places in the 53 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:31,540 world you can study math I was under 54 00:02:35,759 --> 00:02:33,370 Stephen Hawking's wing for a while he 55 00:02:38,369 --> 00:02:35,769 was my tutor and loved it 56 00:02:40,860 --> 00:02:38,379 during Cerreto physics and then later 57 00:02:42,990 --> 00:02:40,870 moved into psychology so I had that 58 00:02:44,729 --> 00:02:43,000 whole scientific training which I really 59 00:02:46,770 --> 00:02:44,739 value and is still with me I mean people 60 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:46,780 often diss science but it's actually 61 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:49,090 it's an incredible training in terms of 62 00:02:53,730 --> 00:02:51,250 just but only an understanding of the 63 00:02:56,449 --> 00:02:53,740 world but how to look at the world so 64 00:02:57,510 --> 00:02:56,459 that that's one aspect of it and then I 65 00:03:00,000 --> 00:02:57,520 also 66 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:00,010 it had an ongoing interest all my life 67 00:03:04,890 --> 00:03:02,890 in the mind and consciousness you know 68 00:03:07,650 --> 00:03:04,900 as a teenager I was doing things 69 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:07,660 teenagers do so you know exploring 70 00:03:11,460 --> 00:03:09,730 self-hypnosis and flashing lights in 71 00:03:14,070 --> 00:03:11,470 front of my eyes and spinning around you 72 00:03:16,980 --> 00:03:14,080 know just exploring altered states just 73 00:03:19,770 --> 00:03:16,990 realizing you know we can we can change 74 00:03:23,970 --> 00:03:19,780 the way we see things and that led me 75 00:03:25,860 --> 00:03:23,980 into reading of well in math in my 76 00:03:27,510 --> 00:03:25,870 teenage years I was reading about Yogi's 77 00:03:30,270 --> 00:03:27,520 and things but remember this is back in 78 00:03:32,850 --> 00:03:30,280 the late fifties early sixties when they 79 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:32,860 you know the perceptions of Yogi's then 80 00:03:38,490 --> 00:03:35,050 were people who could lie on beds of 81 00:03:40,950 --> 00:03:38,500 nails or you know swallow things and not 82 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:40,960 be harmed by them I'm very different 83 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:42,730 from the idea of yoga that's now become 84 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:45,250 so widespread in the West but so that 85 00:03:49,710 --> 00:03:47,050 interest was there and that led me into 86 00:03:52,370 --> 00:03:49,720 an interested Eastern philosophy and 87 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:52,380 meditation and I went out to India and 88 00:03:57,930 --> 00:03:55,090 studied meditation at that time I'd got 89 00:03:59,790 --> 00:03:57,940 involved in TM Transcendental Meditation 90 00:04:02,070 --> 00:03:59,800 but Peter hold on let me interject here 91 00:04:04,170 --> 00:04:02,080 because I think we all do this when we 92 00:04:06,630 --> 00:04:04,180 talk about our story and we try and 93 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:06,640 weave together this tapestry but there 94 00:04:10,530 --> 00:04:08,230 is a big shift there right and an 95 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:10,540 interesting one I'd like to explore so 96 00:04:15,390 --> 00:04:12,610 you're this Cambridge physicist 97 00:04:17,310 --> 00:04:15,400 mathematician science guy as you 98 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:17,320 described in your book from science to 99 00:04:23,340 --> 00:04:19,570 God you're just natural love and 100 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:23,350 inclination to science but you know that 101 00:04:27,870 --> 00:04:25,930 there is quite a schism a lot of times 102 00:04:30,770 --> 00:04:27,880 between the science types the 103 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:30,780 mathematics types yes and people who are 104 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:34,510 traipsing off to India to explore what 105 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:36,490 they're reading about Yogi's it's 106 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:38,890 wonderful I get it but I think that 107 00:04:47,430 --> 00:04:41,770 needs a little bit more filling in there 108 00:04:49,170 --> 00:04:47,440 okay I think I the reason I began to 109 00:04:51,659 --> 00:04:49,180 sort of explore that more actively was a 110 00:04:55,020 --> 00:04:51,669 realization that physics wasn't going to 111 00:04:56,850 --> 00:04:55,030 answer everything and one of the sort of 112 00:04:59,159 --> 00:04:56,860 not quite an epiphany but one of those 113 00:05:02,640 --> 00:04:59,169 moments of like a weight little 114 00:05:04,110 --> 00:05:02,650 awakening was when I realized I could 115 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:04,120 study hydrogen 116 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:06,340 you know solving physics of hydrogen 117 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:07,690 which is a great intellectual 118 00:05:11,410 --> 00:05:09,250 achievement of Western science to 119 00:05:13,690 --> 00:05:11,420 actually soul shredding this equation 120 00:05:16,390 --> 00:05:13,700 and yet you know the whole universe had 121 00:05:19,990 --> 00:05:16,400 evolved out of hydrogen this you know 122 00:05:22,870 --> 00:05:20,000 odorless colorless gas and here and it 123 00:05:26,110 --> 00:05:22,880 evolved into a being like me who could 124 00:05:29,110 --> 00:05:26,120 study hydrogen as like what has happened 125 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:29,120 here how on earth did hydrogen evolve 126 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:31,520 into a system that could study itself 127 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:35,210 and that was that it sort of blew my 128 00:05:39,490 --> 00:05:37,010 mind and it was really like how had 129 00:05:43,090 --> 00:05:39,500 consciousness come into existence in the 130 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:43,100 universe why is it just a load of atoms 131 00:05:49,330 --> 00:05:46,490 evolving molecules you can even predict 132 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:49,340 life but why should life be conscious 133 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:50,810 why was there consciousness in the 134 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:52,850 universe in the first place that was 135 00:05:59,800 --> 00:05:56,170 that was the question that really got me 136 00:06:02,020 --> 00:05:59,810 the old sort of mind mind brain problem 137 00:06:04,420 --> 00:06:02,030 why does the brain have a mind yeah yeah 138 00:06:06,510 --> 00:06:04,430 but what I think is fascinating is you 139 00:06:10,810 --> 00:06:06,520 approached it come from kind of this 140 00:06:12,910 --> 00:06:10,820 recursive scientific kind of mode you 141 00:06:14,770 --> 00:06:12,920 know just digging deeper and deeper into 142 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:14,780 science and I find that fascinating 143 00:06:20,050 --> 00:06:17,690 because for me you know I really have 144 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:20,060 come at it from a kind of a different 145 00:06:23,290 --> 00:06:21,290 perspective totally different 146 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:23,300 perspective although I see the same 147 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:25,850 things you know I was really more I 148 00:06:32,070 --> 00:06:28,370 guess growing up kind of more of an 149 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:32,080 engineering oriented computer oriented 150 00:06:36,250 --> 00:06:34,490 entrepreneurial oriented you know I want 151 00:06:38,830 --> 00:06:36,260 to make money I want to make things and 152 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:38,840 make money and as you described in your 153 00:06:43,990 --> 00:06:41,090 book you know you talk about your early 154 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:44,000 just fascination with science you know 155 00:06:48,580 --> 00:06:46,370 how sound travels through air how metal 156 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:48,590 expands you know that wasn't me I never 157 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:50,570 paid any attention that I was like how 158 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:52,250 can we go out and make a book but at the 159 00:06:59,320 --> 00:06:54,730 same time I found the same kind of 160 00:07:02,140 --> 00:06:59,330 interest for me in yogic ideas or 161 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:02,150 west-eastern versus Western thought but 162 00:07:06,610 --> 00:07:03,850 I just took at it from a very practical 163 00:07:08,290 --> 00:07:06,620 well is this right or is this right 164 00:07:10,540 --> 00:07:08,300 what's the kind of most efficient and 165 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:10,550 yeah kind of an engineering perspective 166 00:07:16,260 --> 00:07:13,370 and I bring that up because in your book 167 00:07:18,730 --> 00:07:16,270 you talk about your frustration with 168 00:07:20,650 --> 00:07:18,740 that we need new models for 169 00:07:23,950 --> 00:07:20,660 consciousness and this is early on you 170 00:07:25,190 --> 00:07:23,960 know as opposed to I guess the way I 171 00:07:27,950 --> 00:07:25,200 always saw it is 172 00:07:29,930 --> 00:07:27,960 hey we got a paradigm that's broken here 173 00:07:33,140 --> 00:07:29,940 it doesn't work anymore it's no big deal 174 00:07:35,450 --> 00:07:33,150 it's like AOL you know we're both old 175 00:07:38,090 --> 00:07:35,460 enough to remember you've got mail oh 176 00:07:40,580 --> 00:07:38,100 well I mean it was the dominant paradigm 177 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:40,590 and it's gone it just disappeared it's 178 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:42,810 no longer AOL Time Warner even changed 179 00:07:48,580 --> 00:07:45,330 the name of that back so I wonder if 180 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:48,590 science has a harder time with these 181 00:07:54,050 --> 00:07:51,810 paradigm shifts and even you as as much 182 00:07:56,390 --> 00:07:54,060 of a pioneer as you are still looks for 183 00:07:58,520 --> 00:07:56,400 new models of consciousness rather than 184 00:07:59,930 --> 00:07:58,530 to say oh you know what science is 185 00:08:02,120 --> 00:07:59,940 broken science doesn't see that I'll 186 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:02,130 never see it it's AOL it'll be in the 187 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:05,810 dustbin of history let's just move on 188 00:08:12,170 --> 00:08:10,650 right yes that's interesting I think you 189 00:08:13,460 --> 00:08:12,180 know where's you're the engineer wanting 190 00:08:16,220 --> 00:08:13,470 to make things work I wanted to 191 00:08:17,930 --> 00:08:16,230 understand things and I wanted to 192 00:08:20,060 --> 00:08:17,940 understand the mind understand 193 00:08:22,310 --> 00:08:20,070 consciousness and I could see you know 194 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:22,320 the current scientific paradigm wasn't 195 00:08:28,430 --> 00:08:25,710 working but what I want to do was find 196 00:08:30,620 --> 00:08:28,440 out what was the new paradigm how could 197 00:08:33,260 --> 00:08:30,630 interface with the old paradigm so I 198 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:33,270 think my path is being much more about 199 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:34,890 understanding things and wanting to 200 00:08:39,620 --> 00:08:37,710 really dig in and how is it how do 201 00:08:42,650 --> 00:08:39,630 things work how does what does the new 202 00:08:44,510 --> 00:08:42,660 paradigm look like and how can I share 203 00:08:47,990 --> 00:08:44,520 this with other people what I'm seeing 204 00:08:49,820 --> 00:08:48,000 so you out probably making things 205 00:08:52,700 --> 00:08:49,830 products businesses 206 00:08:55,730 --> 00:08:52,710 I was out sort of working with ideas 207 00:08:57,700 --> 00:08:55,740 making books that sort of thing so what 208 00:09:01,580 --> 00:08:57,710 did you find what is the driving 209 00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:01,590 paradigm shift that you discovered for 210 00:09:06,740 --> 00:09:04,470 me it's that consciousness is not 211 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:06,750 something that's created by the brain 212 00:09:12,290 --> 00:09:09,570 clearly the brain creates what we 213 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:12,300 experience and if I'm seeing you know a 214 00:09:15,350 --> 00:09:14,130 tree it's creating the experience of 215 00:09:17,690 --> 00:09:15,360 seeing a tree if I'm falling in love 216 00:09:22,310 --> 00:09:17,700 that corresponds to brain activity but 217 00:09:23,930 --> 00:09:22,320 the actual capacity to be aware I don't 218 00:09:27,010 --> 00:09:23,940 think is created by the brain I think 219 00:09:30,310 --> 00:09:27,020 that is actually a universal 220 00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:30,320 characteristic of the whole cosmos and 221 00:09:34,340 --> 00:09:32,550 what has happened with human beings is 222 00:09:36,260 --> 00:09:34,350 we've evolved to a state where we are 223 00:09:39,170 --> 00:09:36,270 conscious that we are conscious we are 224 00:09:41,690 --> 00:09:39,180 self-aware but I don't think awareness 225 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:41,700 comes out of matter I could almost argue 226 00:09:46,580 --> 00:09:43,410 the other way around that our experience 227 00:09:49,490 --> 00:09:46,590 of matter comes out of awareness and 228 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:49,500 that to me is a complete reversal of the 229 00:09:53,690 --> 00:09:51,930 current paradigm and it's a hard thing 230 00:09:56,330 --> 00:09:53,700 to get across to people because you know 231 00:09:59,780 --> 00:09:56,340 as you intimate we hold on to our belief 232 00:10:01,550 --> 00:09:59,790 systems probably more dogged ly than we 233 00:10:04,070 --> 00:10:01,560 hold on to anything else you know we'll 234 00:10:06,890 --> 00:10:04,080 change jobs were changed houses were 235 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:06,900 change partners will even change gender 236 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:08,910 these days but changing our fundamental 237 00:10:13,070 --> 00:10:11,730 belief system is difficult where there 238 00:10:15,980 --> 00:10:13,080 was a religious belief system or a 239 00:10:18,350 --> 00:10:15,990 scientific belief system I think it was 240 00:10:20,810 --> 00:10:18,360 wasn't it Niels Bohr who said science 241 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:20,820 changes not because scientists changed 242 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:22,290 their mind but the old one has died out 243 00:10:28,550 --> 00:10:25,650 yeah I think that's true I took it one 244 00:10:32,330 --> 00:10:28,560 step further and say you know is science 245 00:10:35,780 --> 00:10:32,340 so fundamentally flawed that we can no 246 00:10:38,450 --> 00:10:35,790 longer use it you know a few years ago I 247 00:10:42,130 --> 00:10:38,460 had a chance to interview biologists 248 00:10:45,470 --> 00:10:42,140 elizabeth's a Taurus have you ever heard 249 00:10:46,460 --> 00:10:45,480 she's such a wonderful person and you 250 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:46,470 know she's someone who's obviously 251 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:48,890 looked at these kind of big picture 252 00:10:53,150 --> 00:10:51,810 cross-cultural aspects of science and I 253 00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:53,160 was just listening to the interview and 254 00:10:56,390 --> 00:10:54,630 one of the things really kind of jumped 255 00:10:59,360 --> 00:10:56,400 out at me and that is you know we're the 256 00:11:01,880 --> 00:10:59,370 only culture in which our science 257 00:11:04,940 --> 00:11:01,890 assumes that we can observe our 258 00:11:06,890 --> 00:11:04,950 environment without affecting it Wow 259 00:11:08,990 --> 00:11:06,900 that's kind of interesting kind of 260 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:09,000 profound because it is one of the 261 00:11:13,610 --> 00:11:11,730 fundamental assumptions and we've known 262 00:11:14,690 --> 00:11:13,620 you as a physicist can really speak to 263 00:11:15,980 --> 00:11:14,700 this and I hope you will I mean we've 264 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:15,990 known for the at least the last hundred 265 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:17,730 years that it's completely not true 266 00:11:23,450 --> 00:11:20,370 right I mean quantum physics has told us 267 00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:23,460 the observer effect has told us that no 268 00:11:28,970 --> 00:11:26,550 we cannot observe something without 269 00:11:32,060 --> 00:11:28,980 affecting it okay we've got a wealth of 270 00:11:33,860 --> 00:11:32,070 stuff to go ahead with it firstly just 271 00:11:36,050 --> 00:11:33,870 to go back I don't think science is 272 00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:36,060 fundamentally flawed first of all it's 273 00:11:40,940 --> 00:11:37,920 all just things between science as a 274 00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:40,950 process of arriving at truth which is 275 00:11:45,830 --> 00:11:43,260 the scientific method and the current 276 00:11:47,420 --> 00:11:45,840 scientific paradigm which is the current 277 00:11:50,750 --> 00:11:47,430 worldview which has been arrived at 278 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:50,760 through the process now the current 279 00:11:52,970 --> 00:11:51,330 worldview 280 00:11:54,970 --> 00:11:52,980 I wouldn't say is funded 281 00:11:57,290 --> 00:11:54,980 mentally flawed I would say it's limited 282 00:12:00,019 --> 00:11:57,300 the what the current world view works 283 00:12:04,009 --> 00:12:00,029 perfectly well when we're working out 284 00:12:06,379 --> 00:12:04,019 you know weather patterns how to design 285 00:12:08,180 --> 00:12:06,389 computer chips which are basically based 286 00:12:10,100 --> 00:12:08,190 on quantum theory engineering 287 00:12:11,870 --> 00:12:10,110 engineering no Peter right that's is 288 00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:11,880 that science or is it engineering 289 00:12:15,980 --> 00:12:13,920 well the engineering is based on science 290 00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:15,990 and if you're doing engineering you need 291 00:12:20,569 --> 00:12:17,880 to know you know these days you need to 292 00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:20,579 really know about say metals composites 293 00:12:24,889 --> 00:12:22,529 their strengths their weaknesses how 294 00:12:28,430 --> 00:12:24,899 they work and all of that comes out of 295 00:12:30,860 --> 00:12:28,440 science so science is always behind 296 00:12:33,019 --> 00:12:30,870 technology and then the technology least 297 00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:33,029 the engineering so there's the science 298 00:12:38,150 --> 00:12:35,040 there but what I want to say is it's 299 00:12:40,430 --> 00:12:38,160 limited and it's limitation this 300 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:40,440 particular limitation is it doesn't 301 00:12:45,290 --> 00:12:43,170 include mind or consciousness within its 302 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:45,300 scope and that's when we start going to 303 00:12:50,019 --> 00:12:47,490 those zeros we see its limits it's bit 304 00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:50,029 like saying you know utonium physics was 305 00:12:55,220 --> 00:12:52,529 fine it was limited it's now just a 306 00:12:58,699 --> 00:12:55,230 special case of einstein's physics but 307 00:13:01,850 --> 00:12:58,709 we we still drive our cars by Newtonian 308 00:13:03,980 --> 00:13:01,860 physics we fly our GPS by einsteinium 309 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:03,990 physics but Newtonian physics is 310 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:05,730 perfectly good for driving down the road 311 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:08,610 and so I will just say the science is 312 00:13:10,579 --> 00:13:10,050 limited not floored I just want to make 313 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:10,589 that point 314 00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:12,930 great let's let's probe that a little 315 00:13:17,180 --> 00:13:15,360 bit further and this is maybe just a hot 316 00:13:19,100 --> 00:13:17,190 button for me and I love having a 317 00:13:20,660 --> 00:13:19,110 physicist on to talk about it with 318 00:13:22,819 --> 00:13:20,670 because what you're really saying it 319 00:13:26,269 --> 00:13:22,829 comes down to a matter of measurement 320 00:13:29,059 --> 00:13:26,279 right and how closely we want to measure 321 00:13:31,309 --> 00:13:29,069 things I think what this mind-brain 322 00:13:33,590 --> 00:13:31,319 duality this consciousness issue really 323 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:33,600 says is that you know what we really 324 00:13:37,730 --> 00:13:35,850 can't measure things the way that we 325 00:13:39,650 --> 00:13:37,740 thought we could and in the same way 326 00:13:41,809 --> 00:13:39,660 that when we moved from Newtonian 327 00:13:43,879 --> 00:13:41,819 physics to on Stinney in physics we saw 328 00:13:45,980 --> 00:13:43,889 well you know Newtonian physics is 329 00:13:47,569 --> 00:13:45,990 really kind of an approximation I then 330 00:13:51,079 --> 00:13:47,579 move to consciousness does the same 331 00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:51,089 thing you know we now have to realize 332 00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:52,800 that we have to put an asterisk by 333 00:13:56,509 --> 00:13:54,180 everything we measure because we haven't 334 00:13:59,870 --> 00:13:56,519 factored in consciousness we don't know 335 00:14:02,470 --> 00:13:59,880 how many angels fit on the head of a 336 00:14:05,090 --> 00:14:02,480 needle and yet we now have to seriously 337 00:14:07,129 --> 00:14:05,100 look at that question at least a little 338 00:14:09,769 --> 00:14:07,139 bit we have to factor it in and 339 00:14:12,590 --> 00:14:09,779 don't factor it in so of course I think 340 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:12,600 there's still elements of Sciences is 341 00:14:17,239 --> 00:14:14,730 okay as long as we look at it from my 342 00:14:20,119 --> 00:14:17,249 perspective as an engineer but in terms 343 00:14:23,210 --> 00:14:20,129 of a form of answering these big-picture 344 00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:23,220 questions of who we are why are we here 345 00:14:28,879 --> 00:14:26,790 I wonder if it really holds any promise 346 00:14:30,799 --> 00:14:28,889 of really getting us closer to that or 347 00:14:33,079 --> 00:14:30,809 if it really is just a tool for 348 00:14:34,909 --> 00:14:33,089 engineers I would yeah I think when it 349 00:14:38,659 --> 00:14:34,919 comes to those big questions science is 350 00:14:40,309 --> 00:14:38,669 not going to help us not our current 351 00:14:41,989 --> 00:14:40,319 science anyway no it's not going to help 352 00:14:44,509 --> 00:14:41,999 those big questions why are we here 353 00:14:46,759 --> 00:14:44,519 what's it about it helps us understand 354 00:14:49,999 --> 00:14:46,769 how the world works it doesn't go for 355 00:14:51,379 --> 00:14:50,009 those bigger questions well it depends 356 00:14:52,729 --> 00:14:51,389 on who you talk to there's a lot of 357 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:52,739 folks there were a lot of times have 358 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:55,290 told us that science can give us those 359 00:15:00,019 --> 00:14:56,970 answers and I think we've kind of built 360 00:15:03,109 --> 00:15:00,029 our culture around that but I think 361 00:15:05,299 --> 00:15:03,119 that's part of what you've explored so 362 00:15:08,359 --> 00:15:05,309 wonderfully in your books and in many of 363 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:08,369 your lectures is this intersection with 364 00:15:14,869 --> 00:15:11,970 what consciousness means for these 365 00:15:17,090 --> 00:15:14,879 larger spiritual kind of questions can 366 00:15:20,659 --> 00:15:17,100 you tell us how you how you made that 367 00:15:22,549 --> 00:15:20,669 leap I think it was through I mean so 368 00:15:24,319 --> 00:15:22,559 just observing my own experience in 369 00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:24,329 meditation I think that's been a 370 00:15:30,650 --> 00:15:27,600 fundamental thing is in a way 371 00:15:33,979 --> 00:15:30,660 recognizing that all of what we call the 372 00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:33,989 material world is actually an appearance 373 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:35,519 in the mind and in that sense 374 00:15:41,629 --> 00:15:37,850 consciousness is really fundamental and 375 00:15:44,179 --> 00:15:41,639 comes before the material world in the 376 00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:44,189 sense that all they ever know is my 377 00:15:50,269 --> 00:15:47,360 experience and it's out of my experience 378 00:15:53,449 --> 00:15:50,279 that come my ideas and theories and 379 00:15:56,210 --> 00:15:53,459 models of what the world is like and in 380 00:15:58,460 --> 00:15:56,220 that sense just realizing that the 381 00:15:59,989 --> 00:15:58,470 content consciousness is absolutely 382 00:16:02,539 --> 00:15:59,999 fundamental without consciousness 383 00:16:05,659 --> 00:16:02,549 there'd be no science it all takes place 384 00:16:08,329 --> 00:16:05,669 in the mind and yet you could say it's 385 00:16:12,710 --> 00:16:08,339 the fundamental tool of science and yet 386 00:16:14,090 --> 00:16:12,720 is totally ignored by science and you 387 00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:14,100 know the things you were pointing to 388 00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:16,079 earlier like wave particle duality or 389 00:16:20,750 --> 00:16:19,350 how the collapse of the wavefunction or 390 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:20,760 what's very popular now 391 00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:25,730 the whole idea of nonlocality an 392 00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:29,480 entanglement all of these in some way 393 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:33,030 involved involved knowing they involve 394 00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:35,490 observing and yet 395 00:16:39,230 --> 00:16:37,440 we're trying to understand them in a 396 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:39,240 model that excludes knowing and 397 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:41,130 observing and so we have this strange 398 00:16:46,370 --> 00:16:44,610 dichotomy that where all our models are 399 00:16:48,380 --> 00:16:46,380 generated in consciousness everything we 400 00:16:51,380 --> 00:16:48,390 know is in consciousness and then we 401 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:51,390 forget that and think that the outside 402 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:55,050 world is real and fixed and we then try 403 00:17:00,110 --> 00:16:57,570 to understand it it's it to me it's all 404 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:00,120 back to front in the moment and I think 405 00:17:03,860 --> 00:17:02,490 that's why physics is it's just going to 406 00:17:04,970 --> 00:17:03,870 dig itself deeper and deeper into 407 00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:04,980 trouble in this way 408 00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:07,110 yeah expound on that because that's 409 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:09,270 where I was really going yeah I wonder 410 00:17:13,130 --> 00:17:11,250 if it's all that sounds like a wonderful 411 00:17:17,630 --> 00:17:13,140 British expression it's all back to 412 00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:17,640 front I mean is it so turned around that 413 00:17:22,130 --> 00:17:21,360 we really can't untangle it from that 414 00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:22,140 perspective 415 00:17:26,420 --> 00:17:24,900 well expound on that a little bit well 416 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:26,430 what I think I mean if you look at 417 00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:29,970 modern physics look at both the very big 418 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:32,880 cut those cosmological questions and the 419 00:17:38,510 --> 00:17:36,210 very small the quantum questions we are 420 00:17:41,420 --> 00:17:38,520 faced with mystery after mystery after 421 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:41,430 mystery you know the Big Bang black 422 00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:46,650 holes dark matter dark energy all all of 423 00:17:53,540 --> 00:17:49,670 this stuff fundamental particles and 424 00:17:57,370 --> 00:17:53,550 none of it works multiple universes all 425 00:18:00,020 --> 00:17:57,380 this stuff we have lots of questions and 426 00:18:01,970 --> 00:18:00,030 we have lots of different models whether 427 00:18:04,370 --> 00:18:01,980 it's string theory and they are multiple 428 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:04,380 universe theory all modified Newtonian 429 00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:06,930 dynamics theory you know I could list a 430 00:18:11,180 --> 00:18:08,910 dozen different theories and they all 431 00:18:11,930 --> 00:18:11,190 sort of help out a bit they all have 432 00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:11,940 problems 433 00:18:18,350 --> 00:18:15,900 nothing really solves the mystery and I 434 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:18,360 think that is because we are working 435 00:18:24,050 --> 00:18:21,210 with within a paradigm that does not 436 00:18:25,970 --> 00:18:24,060 include consciousness it gets the 437 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:25,980 excludes consciousness and I think we 438 00:18:31,580 --> 00:18:28,770 are going to be stuck with these you 439 00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:31,590 know incomplete models until someone 440 00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:34,080 comes up with a model that acts 441 00:18:37,220 --> 00:18:35,700 includes consciousness but that would be 442 00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:37,230 anathema for modern science so it's 443 00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:40,320 going to take a real renegade to 444 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:43,470 actually work in consciousness into the 445 00:18:47,330 --> 00:18:45,090 physical models but I believe that's the 446 00:18:50,029 --> 00:18:47,340 only way we're going to get through this 447 00:18:54,350 --> 00:18:50,039 stage of modern science of just like 448 00:18:58,250 --> 00:18:54,360 just I say full of mysteries and no no 449 00:19:00,110 --> 00:18:58,260 true forerunner as an explanation and I 450 00:19:01,549 --> 00:19:00,120 even wonder if we can do it because I 451 00:19:03,740 --> 00:19:01,559 think it again comes down to this 452 00:19:05,419 --> 00:19:03,750 measurement problem I mean we've kind of 453 00:19:07,669 --> 00:19:05,429 played with the measurement problem a 454 00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:07,679 little bit and Einstein comes along he 455 00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:09,000 says oh wow you know everything's 456 00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:10,799 relative and we can only measure it down 457 00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:13,679 to this what level and Max Planck comes 458 00:19:18,019 --> 00:19:16,110 along same thing you know but we're 459 00:19:19,879 --> 00:19:18,029 still playing with oh we can get there 460 00:19:21,889 --> 00:19:19,889 we can get there yeah I think what 461 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:21,899 consciousness does is come around and 462 00:19:25,820 --> 00:19:24,210 change the whole game and say no you 463 00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:25,830 guys have been looking at this like a 464 00:19:31,519 --> 00:19:28,799 closed loop system and it's not you know 465 00:19:34,490 --> 00:19:31,529 it's open in some way that we'll never 466 00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:34,500 be able to pin it down and I wonder you 467 00:19:41,149 --> 00:19:37,980 know what kind of system of science what 468 00:19:43,519 --> 00:19:41,159 kind of system of logic really comes out 469 00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:43,529 of that and if it's so different from 470 00:19:48,610 --> 00:19:46,080 the assumptions that we have now if it 471 00:19:53,870 --> 00:19:48,620 is even recognizable to us as 472 00:19:55,730 --> 00:19:53,880 quote-unquote science yes I I don't know 473 00:19:59,210 --> 00:19:55,740 what it's gonna look like I mean that if 474 00:20:01,490 --> 00:19:59,220 I did I'd be getting my Nobel Prize yes 475 00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:01,500 yes well you know let me approach it 476 00:20:06,759 --> 00:20:02,760 this way because you brought up the 477 00:20:09,139 --> 00:20:06,769 topic of meditation yeah I think is 478 00:20:12,049 --> 00:20:09,149 fascinating and I think there's some 479 00:20:14,180 --> 00:20:12,059 parallels to this discussion that we've 480 00:20:17,169 --> 00:20:14,190 had about science and I'd kind of like 481 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:17,179 to explore those with okay um you are 482 00:20:23,269 --> 00:20:20,250 very experienced meditator and 483 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:23,279 meditation teacher before we go too far 484 00:20:25,970 --> 00:20:24,570 tell us a little bit about your 485 00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:25,980 background because you are quite 486 00:20:30,830 --> 00:20:28,320 accomplished in and quite well known as 487 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:30,840 like I say not only a practitioner but 488 00:20:36,350 --> 00:20:32,490 but a teacher of meditation are you not 489 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:36,360 yes yes but I haven't 490 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:39,330 I love meditation as I said it started 491 00:20:43,159 --> 00:20:41,250 me off on my journey 40 years ago 492 00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:43,169 getting involved in Transcendental 493 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:45,480 Meditation and then I've explored other 494 00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:47,970 practices for while I got 495 00:20:53,090 --> 00:20:49,740 involved in Buddhist teaching 496 00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:53,100 mindfulness practices and I've come to 497 00:20:58,130 --> 00:20:55,230 the point now of just looking you know 498 00:21:01,700 --> 00:20:58,140 what is underlying all these practices 499 00:21:04,190 --> 00:21:01,710 and what is the most efficient way of 500 00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:04,200 meditating and one of the things I 501 00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:06,870 really got very early very early on in 502 00:21:12,740 --> 00:21:09,510 Transcendental Meditation was the whole 503 00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:12,750 notion of effortlessness that any effort 504 00:21:17,210 --> 00:21:14,820 you put into meditation any focusing the 505 00:21:19,610 --> 00:21:17,220 mind actually just makes it more tense 506 00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:19,620 now there's many many traditions that 507 00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:21,120 teach effort you've got to concentrate 508 00:21:27,230 --> 00:21:24,900 it's very hard and I just realized it's 509 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:27,240 like it's a closed loop there if you if 510 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:29,370 you think it's hard you put effort into 511 00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:31,290 it it doesn't work very well 512 00:21:34,730 --> 00:21:32,910 you therefore think I need to put more 513 00:21:36,770 --> 00:21:34,740 effort into it it gets even harder and 514 00:21:38,540 --> 00:21:36,780 you end up with teaching saying oh yes 515 00:21:41,860 --> 00:21:38,550 it's going to take lifetime to practice 516 00:21:45,770 --> 00:21:41,870 to get anywhere my experience has been 517 00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:45,780 the less you try the less effort the 518 00:21:50,530 --> 00:21:48,510 faster the mind relaxes and so what I've 519 00:21:53,780 --> 00:21:50,540 been working with in recent years is 520 00:21:57,050 --> 00:21:53,790 finding different ways different like 521 00:22:00,830 --> 00:21:57,060 little sub techniques that will sort of 522 00:22:03,650 --> 00:22:00,840 weed out even the tiniest seed of effort 523 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:03,660 the tiniest seed of wanting so for me 524 00:22:09,950 --> 00:22:06,890 it's about letting letting the mind 525 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:09,960 fully relax and we through you know 526 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:11,730 physical yoga things we can get the body 527 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:14,690 relaxed this is how do we let the mind 528 00:22:19,610 --> 00:22:17,250 totally relax and in that total 529 00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:19,620 relaxation it's about letting the 530 00:22:25,940 --> 00:22:22,500 attention relax and then we just sink 531 00:22:28,550 --> 00:22:25,950 back into our own being this our own 532 00:22:30,620 --> 00:22:28,560 source and that's that to me is the 533 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:30,630 ultimate goal of meditation whether you 534 00:22:35,660 --> 00:22:32,730 call it you know the divine the pure 535 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:35,670 self pure consciousness being pure 536 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:37,890 spirit it doesn't really matter but it's 537 00:22:44,420 --> 00:22:41,490 coming back to that state of essence of 538 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:44,430 stillness and I'm just interested in how 539 00:22:48,620 --> 00:22:47,370 we can do that so much more easily and 540 00:22:51,410 --> 00:22:48,630 rapidly and that's what I'm teaching 541 00:22:53,540 --> 00:22:51,420 these days is going against the I mean 542 00:22:55,730 --> 00:22:53,550 have a lot of friends who are deeply 543 00:22:57,980 --> 00:22:55,740 involved in traditions and that you know 544 00:23:00,140 --> 00:22:57,990 we have debates about this I say oh all 545 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:00,150 this preparation is necessary and you 546 00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:01,410 need all these other tech 547 00:23:06,020 --> 00:23:02,910 Meek's and only when you've accomplished 548 00:23:08,030 --> 00:23:06,030 this and the groups I run I'm just 549 00:23:09,950 --> 00:23:08,040 fighting no I think we can go straight 550 00:23:13,130 --> 00:23:09,960 there and that's what I'm interested in 551 00:23:15,740 --> 00:23:13,140 because in these times I think we need 552 00:23:19,330 --> 00:23:15,750 some sort of practice of stealing the 553 00:23:21,890 --> 00:23:19,340 mind so so important in our culture and 554 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:21,900 let's find you how we do that and make 555 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:22,770 it more efficient 556 00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:24,810 so that's really what what I'm 557 00:23:30,110 --> 00:23:27,870 interested in is that how that how to 558 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:30,120 have that letting go just really happen 559 00:23:33,950 --> 00:23:31,290 as easily as possible 560 00:23:37,070 --> 00:23:33,960 right that's fascinating you know of 561 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:37,080 course there's always the the inner play 562 00:23:41,270 --> 00:23:39,450 there again like the parallels in in 563 00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:41,280 science but here it's between you know 564 00:23:45,980 --> 00:23:44,130 this big mind in this little mind you 565 00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:45,990 don't work the monkey mind or all these 566 00:23:49,460 --> 00:23:47,310 things which I I think it's kind of a 567 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:49,470 derogatory term that I don't like so 568 00:23:53,870 --> 00:23:50,970 much but all right you know what I 569 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:53,880 wonder as we're talking about this is 570 00:23:59,000 --> 00:23:56,490 that when we talk about meditation 571 00:24:02,030 --> 00:23:59,010 practice and as a practitioner and 572 00:24:04,370 --> 00:24:02,040 techniques and efficiency I get all that 573 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:04,380 and that's very pragmatic but I wonder 574 00:24:08,570 --> 00:24:06,330 if there isn't a big paradigm shift 575 00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:08,580 there too because to me the paradigm 576 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:10,860 shift is that you are not your thoughts 577 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:13,290 right I mean yeah it is fundamentally 578 00:24:18,350 --> 00:24:15,510 what it's all about yes and once we take 579 00:24:21,950 --> 00:24:18,360 that in which is really really hard to 580 00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:21,960 do once we take that in everything 581 00:24:27,170 --> 00:24:24,750 changes because we just have to look at 582 00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:27,180 whatever technique were applying 583 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:31,910 whatever method were using it's not us 584 00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:34,890 because we are just in this container 585 00:24:39,740 --> 00:24:36,720 but there's this larger consciousness 586 00:24:41,330 --> 00:24:39,750 that were interacting with that we 587 00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:41,340 didn't even realize we were interacting 588 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:44,400 yes I think this is so important and I 589 00:24:48,380 --> 00:24:46,530 think this is something more and more 590 00:24:50,810 --> 00:24:48,390 people are realizing these days it's 591 00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:50,820 like the right you know I am NOT my 592 00:24:56,780 --> 00:24:53,520 thoughts you know what I am is that 593 00:24:58,370 --> 00:24:56,790 knowing which is a conscious of the 594 00:25:00,710 --> 00:24:58,380 thoughts and the thoughts are appearing 595 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:00,720 in awareness but we tend to identify 596 00:25:05,570 --> 00:25:03,330 with the thinking but no I'm not the 597 00:25:08,060 --> 00:25:05,580 thought I am that space of awareness in 598 00:25:10,910 --> 00:25:08,070 which it is appearing in the same way I 599 00:25:13,020 --> 00:25:10,920 am that space of awareness within which 600 00:25:15,810 --> 00:25:13,030 the meditation is happening 601 00:25:17,250 --> 00:25:15,820 and you know so much meditation is doing 602 00:25:20,130 --> 00:25:17,260 something trying to change something 603 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:20,140 make something happen and yet you know 604 00:25:25,350 --> 00:25:22,510 that is the little ego I trying to do 605 00:25:28,590 --> 00:25:25,360 something whereas that true self is just 606 00:25:30,060 --> 00:25:28,600 is there but knowing the experience of 607 00:25:33,450 --> 00:25:30,070 meditating that's like we keep coming 608 00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:33,460 back to this that that that beingness is 609 00:25:38,340 --> 00:25:35,950 always present we don't have to go 610 00:25:41,010 --> 00:25:38,350 anywhere or get anything or make 611 00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:41,020 anything happen it's about almost like 612 00:25:46,020 --> 00:25:43,540 softening the attention and as we soften 613 00:25:50,490 --> 00:25:46,030 the attention we just recognize ah 614 00:25:52,830 --> 00:25:50,500 this sense of being weak all I has been 615 00:25:53,610 --> 00:25:52,840 there all my life I just didn't 616 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:53,620 recognize it 617 00:25:58,680 --> 00:25:56,290 missing and I am the same I I was when I 618 00:26:01,530 --> 00:25:58,690 was a teenager when I was 30 years old 619 00:26:03,810 --> 00:26:01,540 as I was yesterday it's always that same 620 00:26:07,170 --> 00:26:03,820 sense of being what my thoughts are 621 00:26:09,660 --> 00:26:07,180 different you know my my values my goals 622 00:26:11,790 --> 00:26:09,670 in life my feelings all of this changing 623 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:11,800 the whole time and hopefully evolving 624 00:26:19,410 --> 00:26:15,130 but the eye that is there at the center 625 00:26:23,550 --> 00:26:19,420 of it all is that still Center just the 626 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:23,560 observing of all of this and I think you 627 00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:24,730 know it's that which people are 628 00:26:29,370 --> 00:26:27,220 recognized and we don't have to go 629 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:29,380 anywhere or do anything or even have any 630 00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:32,650 technique I think you know I was reading 631 00:26:36,090 --> 00:26:34,270 at each a day you said you know in the 632 00:26:38,250 --> 00:26:36,100 end the value of all teachers and 633 00:26:40,710 --> 00:26:38,260 techniques is you come to the point of 634 00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:40,720 realizing you do not need teachers or 635 00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:44,080 techniques mm-hmm and that's it's a few 636 00:26:47,670 --> 00:26:45,550 no it's a paradoxical journey I think 637 00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:47,680 many of us are on that I know I was your 638 00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:49,510 I've been through various practices and 639 00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:52,720 then in the end for me the practice is 640 00:26:59,010 --> 00:26:56,560 just simply noticing that awareness 641 00:27:00,650 --> 00:26:59,020 which is always there and not following 642 00:27:04,050 --> 00:27:00,660 the thought you talked about monkey mind 643 00:27:05,370 --> 00:27:04,060 you know yes the mind goes here and 644 00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:05,380 there it goes from one thought to 645 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:08,350 another one thought triggers another in 646 00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:10,090 meditation for me it's simply a matter 647 00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:12,460 of just say okay when that happens I'm 648 00:27:16,860 --> 00:27:15,130 not following you this is not the time 649 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:16,870 to follow a thought and do that later 650 00:27:20,580 --> 00:27:18,850 the rest of life I can follow my 651 00:27:23,790 --> 00:27:20,590 thoughts right now it's like thank you 652 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:23,800 not now and if you don't follow the 653 00:27:28,110 --> 00:27:26,410 thought you gradually take the 654 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:28,120 fuel away from them you're not adding 655 00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:30,970 fuel to the fire and the thoughts just 656 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:33,070 gradually die down on their own if you 657 00:27:38,970 --> 00:27:35,770 don't follow them so for me the essence 658 00:27:41,670 --> 00:27:38,980 of you know my practice is not following 659 00:27:44,220 --> 00:27:41,680 the thought and just noticing the 660 00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:44,230 awareness that's always there wonderful 661 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:46,600 but it's tricky isn't it because you 662 00:27:54,150 --> 00:27:50,290 knowin ya anyone who's tried this knows 663 00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:54,160 we're always interacting with that big 664 00:27:58,140 --> 00:27:56,080 mind little mind thing we cannot get 665 00:28:00,390 --> 00:27:58,150 away from it we're in this body and I 666 00:28:03,210 --> 00:28:00,400 think it's those little moments of 667 00:28:05,670 --> 00:28:03,220 realization that I think propel us just 668 00:28:08,340 --> 00:28:05,680 a little bit further yeah I always think 669 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:08,350 of this experience that I had as a dad 670 00:28:12,810 --> 00:28:11,290 really a few years ago when my oldest 671 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:12,820 daughter was a little bit younger she 672 00:28:18,060 --> 00:28:15,490 had this fascination like a lot of kids 673 00:28:19,860 --> 00:28:18,070 do with you know these pizza parlors 674 00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:19,870 where you go and you win these little 675 00:28:25,290 --> 00:28:22,150 tickets in the machines and then you go 676 00:28:27,230 --> 00:28:25,300 cash in your tickets for these trinkets 677 00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:27,240 that just aren't worth it and the 678 00:28:31,380 --> 00:28:29,620 economics of it again as a kind of an 679 00:28:33,450 --> 00:28:31,390 entrepreneurial guy it just always kind 680 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:33,460 of drove me nuts I'm like you know hon 681 00:28:36,990 --> 00:28:35,050 we can go right over here to the store 682 00:28:40,770 --> 00:28:37,000 and buy that thing for our fraction of 683 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:40,780 what you bent on it but I remember so 684 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:43,450 clearly standing back a little bit and 685 00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:45,850 seeing her peering into you know the 686 00:28:50,550 --> 00:28:48,510 glass case in deciding what she had and 687 00:28:52,350 --> 00:28:50,560 even though she's my daughter and I love 688 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:52,360 her I had these thoughts of oh my gosh 689 00:28:57,450 --> 00:28:54,850 you know this kid how naive you know and 690 00:29:01,770 --> 00:28:57,460 then suddenly it dawned on me this is me 691 00:29:04,170 --> 00:29:01,780 this is my life this is what I do I I do 692 00:29:06,570 --> 00:29:04,180 all this stuff to get these little 693 00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:06,580 tickets so I can cash in for these 694 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:09,070 little trinkets so I can continue to 695 00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:11,050 play this little game and there's this 696 00:29:17,130 --> 00:29:14,110 other whole other thing going on that I 697 00:29:19,740 --> 00:29:17,140 really access and when I do all the 698 00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:19,750 other stuff looks just like cashing in 699 00:29:26,460 --> 00:29:22,150 tickets for little toys little plastic 700 00:29:28,530 --> 00:29:26,470 toys yes yeah yes absolutely and and I 701 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:28,540 think the cokes were hypnosis here I 702 00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:29,770 mean you want your daughter sort of 703 00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:32,320 fallen into that cultural hypnosis which 704 00:29:35,910 --> 00:29:34,300 has been it's not just it's deliberately 705 00:29:37,890 --> 00:29:35,920 done I mean because there's people 706 00:29:40,130 --> 00:29:37,900 producing the trinket machines so that 707 00:29:42,770 --> 00:29:40,140 they can make money for themselves 708 00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:42,780 but I mean the hypnosis is that if we 709 00:29:47,870 --> 00:29:45,360 just got the right thing whatever it is 710 00:29:50,980 --> 00:29:47,880 we're being told we haven't got we lack 711 00:29:54,110 --> 00:29:50,990 something get this you'll feel okay and 712 00:29:55,970 --> 00:29:54,120 it works a little bit you know your 713 00:29:58,100 --> 00:29:55,980 daughter gets her trinket she feels okay 714 00:30:00,920 --> 00:29:58,110 for I don't know five minutes whatever 715 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:00,930 you know that in our lives we play these 716 00:30:04,490 --> 00:30:02,910 games we get our bits of paper and we go 717 00:30:07,340 --> 00:30:04,500 and exchange them for something else and 718 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:07,350 we we feel okay we buy you know new 719 00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:08,970 piece of clothing we feel like we feel 720 00:30:16,490 --> 00:30:14,310 great and the hypnosis is we think it's 721 00:30:18,590 --> 00:30:16,500 the getting the trinket or whatever it 722 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:18,600 is the friendship the great movie the 723 00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:22,170 the gourmet meal we think that's what's 724 00:30:29,210 --> 00:30:25,310 made us happy it's actually ironically 725 00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:29,220 the opposite week we create this content 726 00:30:33,350 --> 00:30:31,080 we haven't got something your daughter 727 00:30:34,940 --> 00:30:33,360 sitting there she's you know there's a 728 00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:34,950 sense of discontent I haven't but I'm 729 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:35,880 going to get something there's something 730 00:30:41,330 --> 00:30:37,530 missing but I'm going to feel okay when 731 00:30:43,460 --> 00:30:41,340 I get it we create this content and then 732 00:30:46,370 --> 00:30:43,470 and that makes us you know we don't feel 733 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:46,380 so good and then when we get it the 734 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:48,810 discontent dissolves and we feel good 735 00:30:53,180 --> 00:30:51,570 but we think it's the the trinket that 736 00:30:56,260 --> 00:30:53,190 makes us feel good instead of realizing 737 00:30:59,240 --> 00:30:56,270 we have temporarily stopped creating 738 00:31:01,310 --> 00:30:59,250 discontent but only temporarily because 739 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:01,320 then again you know we meet some 740 00:31:05,420 --> 00:31:02,610 something else to some other 741 00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:05,430 advertisement we something comes up we 742 00:31:09,410 --> 00:31:07,710 read something is like Oh something else 743 00:31:12,380 --> 00:31:09,420 I haven't got something else I need and 744 00:31:14,390 --> 00:31:12,390 that to me is what you know an Indian 745 00:31:16,610 --> 00:31:14,400 thought is called the wheel of samsara 746 00:31:19,070 --> 00:31:16,620 it's that endless it literally means to 747 00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:19,080 wander on endlessly we wander on from 748 00:31:23,390 --> 00:31:21,600 one thing to another just hoping if we 749 00:31:27,740 --> 00:31:23,400 finally got enough of the right goodies 750 00:31:29,450 --> 00:31:27,750 we be in everlasting peace so I wonder 751 00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:29,460 you know as you're saying that I keep 752 00:31:34,490 --> 00:31:32,310 going back to the earlier part of our 753 00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:34,500 conversation right and there seem to be 754 00:31:39,980 --> 00:31:37,110 a lot of parallels there I'm not sure I 755 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:39,990 can draw my lock what are the parallels 756 00:31:44,150 --> 00:31:43,050 between that process it echoes so many 757 00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:44,160 of the things we were talking about with 758 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:46,740 science and and science not being able 759 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:50,130 to kind of find itself out of this mess 760 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:52,650 because what it's doing in the same way 761 00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:53,850 that you're saying we're kind of 762 00:31:59,390 --> 00:31:56,880 creating this need this false need in 763 00:32:01,340 --> 00:31:59,400 order to fill this false need it seems 764 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:01,350 to me that that's kind of what science 765 00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:06,090 is doing in a way we're creating or 766 00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:09,679 structuring problems that we can solve 767 00:32:16,820 --> 00:32:14,520 inside of a paradigm that isn't real so 768 00:32:18,350 --> 00:32:16,830 we're creating oh here's a little 769 00:32:21,860 --> 00:32:18,360 mystery that we can go and solve them da 770 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:21,870 da da da but it's not really related to 771 00:32:26,690 --> 00:32:24,330 these bigger problems the problems that 772 00:32:29,090 --> 00:32:26,700 we really always asked science from the 773 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:29,100 beginning which you know you kind of 774 00:32:33,230 --> 00:32:31,650 said out of hand that science can't 775 00:32:35,510 --> 00:32:33,240 answer the big-picture questions who are 776 00:32:37,310 --> 00:32:35,520 we why are we here yeah I would go back 777 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:37,320 and say that's all we ever wanted 778 00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:39,450 science to do in the first place why 779 00:32:43,220 --> 00:32:41,580 have we spent all this time on all these 780 00:32:43,730 --> 00:32:43,230 plastic trinkets and all this other 781 00:32:45,919 --> 00:32:43,740 stuff 782 00:32:48,380 --> 00:32:45,929 all's we ever wanted from science was 783 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:48,390 who are we why are we here right and if 784 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:50,370 you take that actually all the way back 785 00:32:56,060 --> 00:32:53,010 the very very first science was 786 00:32:57,890 --> 00:32:56,070 astronomy and it was looking at the sky 787 00:33:00,140 --> 00:32:57,900 at night when we didn't have television 788 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:00,150 all we had was the campfire and the 789 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:02,730 Stars and it was the charting of the 790 00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:05,010 stars and the wondering what was going 791 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:07,200 on in the cosmos which was the why are 792 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:08,850 we here that was the beginning of 793 00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:11,370 science working all that you know 794 00:33:15,710 --> 00:33:13,500 looking at the Stars looking at the sky 795 00:33:17,210 --> 00:33:15,720 looking out into space no I don't think 796 00:33:21,649 --> 00:33:17,220 it can answer those questions and never 797 00:33:24,409 --> 00:33:21,659 will I think science is and weather 798 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:24,419 where science goes science leads to 799 00:33:28,430 --> 00:33:26,250 technology always you know when we 800 00:33:31,310 --> 00:33:28,440 discover something is then okay how can 801 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:31,320 we use this to make something to do 802 00:33:38,149 --> 00:33:34,770 something and then that technology falls 803 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:38,159 into the service of this belief system 804 00:33:42,529 --> 00:33:39,570 that we just have to make things right 805 00:33:44,390 --> 00:33:42,539 to be happy and so we started building 806 00:33:47,149 --> 00:33:44,400 technologies based on a scientific 807 00:33:48,860 --> 00:33:47,159 understanding of how to make things more 808 00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:48,870 efficient how to make our computers 809 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:51,809 boot-up faster bigger memory whatever it 810 00:33:58,820 --> 00:33:55,650 is how does you know get our cars more 811 00:34:02,600 --> 00:33:58,830 efficient how to produce whatever it is 812 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:02,610 that better food is always ultimately 813 00:34:06,930 --> 00:34:05,730 about human satisfaction so technology 814 00:34:08,850 --> 00:34:06,940 feeds 815 00:34:11,130 --> 00:34:08,860 to how to make things more efficient how 816 00:34:13,050 --> 00:34:11,140 to make us happier how to relieve pain 817 00:34:15,630 --> 00:34:13,060 and suffering whatever it is some of 818 00:34:19,700 --> 00:34:15,640 which is you know very honorable but 819 00:34:23,370 --> 00:34:19,710 it's falling into this basic trap that 820 00:34:25,230 --> 00:34:23,380 fulfillment comes from how the world is 821 00:34:27,780 --> 00:34:25,240 from what we have all do and so we're 822 00:34:30,270 --> 00:34:27,790 seeking to make the world better whereas 823 00:34:33,950 --> 00:34:30,280 just about every spiritual teaching on 824 00:34:36,420 --> 00:34:33,960 the planet says in one way or another 825 00:34:38,340 --> 00:34:36,430 fulfillment comes from how you see the 826 00:34:40,890 --> 00:34:38,350 world how you interpret the world it's 827 00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:40,900 not the way the world is it's a response 828 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:43,270 to it that determines how we feel and 829 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:46,450 that your science doesn't look at except 830 00:34:50,010 --> 00:34:48,370 maybe in some areas of psychology is 831 00:34:53,490 --> 00:34:50,020 beginning to you know it's interesting 832 00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:53,500 you've now thrown the spirituality track 833 00:34:58,680 --> 00:34:56,560 down on the table as well mixing 834 00:35:01,770 --> 00:34:58,690 metaphors there but you know that's 835 00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:01,780 something you've done a wonderful job of 836 00:35:07,290 --> 00:35:04,710 trying to cross over and in 837 00:35:08,580 --> 00:35:07,300 cross-fertilize but we always have a 838 00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:08,590 tendency to want to kind of pull those 839 00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:10,870 things apart and I wonder in the way 840 00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:13,110 that you just did that is you just 841 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:16,960 seamlessly went from Sciences inability 842 00:35:22,350 --> 00:35:19,570 to answer these questions to talking 843 00:35:25,220 --> 00:35:22,360 about how spiritual traditions and in 844 00:35:28,260 --> 00:35:25,230 particular in the East contemplative 845 00:35:32,370 --> 00:35:28,270 traditions traditions that just really 846 00:35:35,610 --> 00:35:32,380 go within and say I can by contemplating 847 00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:35,620 this consciousness mechanism that I have 848 00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:38,110 maybe arrived at some questions how do 849 00:35:45,330 --> 00:35:41,710 we transcend and make that new paradigm 850 00:35:47,250 --> 00:35:45,340 leap to allow us to bring in that 851 00:35:49,550 --> 00:35:47,260 information that we have from these 852 00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:49,560 traditions and also from our own 853 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:52,510 observations our own contemplative work 854 00:35:57,270 --> 00:35:54,690 Wow 855 00:36:00,480 --> 00:35:57,280 good great questions we got another 856 00:36:05,670 --> 00:36:03,150 okay first of all I just like to say you 857 00:36:09,780 --> 00:36:05,680 know I distinguish between spirituality 858 00:36:11,310 --> 00:36:09,790 and religion I think I think all the 859 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:11,320 great religions started from deep 860 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:14,050 spiritual insights spiritual awakenings 861 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:18,010 of people why they they just they had a 862 00:36:24,030 --> 00:36:21,690 realization which is almost it sort of 863 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:24,040 it's what Aldous Huxley called the 864 00:36:28,109 --> 00:36:26,050 perennial philosophy it comes up again 865 00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:28,119 and again and again and it's about 866 00:36:31,650 --> 00:36:30,160 things we talk about it's about letting 867 00:36:34,620 --> 00:36:31,660 go it's about discovering our true 868 00:36:36,210 --> 00:36:34,630 nature is about realizing the love that 869 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:36,220 is there within Earth it's about not 870 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:38,170 chasing material things there's many 871 00:36:42,150 --> 00:36:40,210 different aspects to it and then it gets 872 00:36:44,250 --> 00:36:42,160 absorbed by the culture it gets 873 00:36:47,010 --> 00:36:44,260 translated in different languages and 874 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:47,020 bits get added on bits gets lost and we 875 00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:50,610 end up with lots of different religions 876 00:36:54,990 --> 00:36:53,440 which look very different so much so 877 00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:55,000 that they start arguing about which one 878 00:36:59,850 --> 00:36:57,970 is right and I'm interested in what is 879 00:37:01,770 --> 00:36:59,860 it underneath them all that's that's 880 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:01,780 right there's a common core there and 881 00:37:06,450 --> 00:37:04,330 that to me is what I call spirituality 882 00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:06,460 the spiritual traditions there's a 883 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:10,720 common core and now remind me the second 884 00:37:15,660 --> 00:37:12,970 part of your question again I got well I 885 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:15,670 think there's also a distinction that 886 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:18,450 I'd like to hear you make or draw out 887 00:37:27,420 --> 00:37:23,650 between the contemplative traditions and 888 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:27,430 the spiritual spark you know because the 889 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:30,970 the spiritual spark almost seems by by 890 00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:34,210 definition to come from the outside and 891 00:37:38,820 --> 00:37:36,160 we don't know because once we get into 892 00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:38,830 that territory once we cross this chasm 893 00:37:44,670 --> 00:37:42,190 and say okay consciousness is not solely 894 00:37:46,590 --> 00:37:44,680 a product of the brain I think we all 895 00:37:49,410 --> 00:37:46,600 realize that kind of all bets are off 896 00:37:50,940 --> 00:37:49,420 we've kind of gone into a zone where 897 00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:50,950 we're just kind of walking our way 898 00:37:55,980 --> 00:37:53,440 through but I think that's something 899 00:37:59,790 --> 00:37:55,990 that that you've explored a little bit 900 00:38:02,040 --> 00:37:59,800 in this crossing over from a very kind 901 00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:02,050 of strict formalized way of looking at 902 00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:06,160 it to a spiritual kind of divine insight 903 00:38:12,690 --> 00:38:09,280 way and in between almost I think 904 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:12,700 sits this contemplative no I'm not going 905 00:38:17,220 --> 00:38:15,130 to consider necessarily outside 906 00:38:19,020 --> 00:38:17,230 spiritual influences although those 907 00:38:22,380 --> 00:38:19,030 might come in but I'm just going to kind 908 00:38:25,820 --> 00:38:22,390 of go within and be quiet mm-hmm yes 909 00:38:28,650 --> 00:38:25,830 that's been very much yes my approach 910 00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:28,660 supported by you know what other people 911 00:38:32,820 --> 00:38:30,160 who've done the same there's a lot of 912 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:32,830 guidance and there from people who trod 913 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:34,450 that path and gone a lot 914 00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:37,690 further down and than I have and we and 915 00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:39,250 just a another point here coming back to 916 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:40,960 science I think seeing a science is 917 00:38:46,349 --> 00:38:44,650 studying the phenomenal world when it 918 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:46,359 calls the material world and I would say 919 00:38:51,630 --> 00:38:49,410 the spiritual conditions are studying 920 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:51,640 experience itself the arising of 921 00:38:55,589 --> 00:38:53,770 experience and the two of different 922 00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:55,599 fields I don't see any conflict between 923 00:39:00,420 --> 00:38:58,450 science and spirituality only when you 924 00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:00,430 think the spiritual is talking about the 925 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:02,800 material world then this conflict you 926 00:39:06,450 --> 00:39:04,690 saw talked about how the universe began 927 00:39:09,569 --> 00:39:06,460 I think the spiritual traditions are 928 00:39:10,859 --> 00:39:09,579 talking about what goes on inside us and 929 00:39:12,990 --> 00:39:10,869 that's where the contemplative 930 00:39:16,579 --> 00:39:13,000 traditions I think are really valuable 931 00:39:20,220 --> 00:39:16,589 it's about pausing and being willing to 932 00:39:23,370 --> 00:39:20,230 observe what is actually happening in 933 00:39:26,069 --> 00:39:23,380 one's own mind and so you know we talked 934 00:39:27,690 --> 00:39:26,079 we touched on thoughts you know most of 935 00:39:29,940 --> 00:39:27,700 us spend our time wrapped up in thoughts 936 00:39:31,740 --> 00:39:29,950 what you called the monkey mind but when 937 00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:31,750 you pause as a thoughts begin to settle 938 00:39:36,450 --> 00:39:34,000 down you think you can begin to notice 939 00:39:39,870 --> 00:39:36,460 how a thought comes into being you can 940 00:39:41,970 --> 00:39:39,880 notice that tiny tiny seed and how that 941 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:41,980 grows and how this sense of identity 942 00:39:46,650 --> 00:39:44,050 begins to get built into the thought and 943 00:39:48,660 --> 00:39:46,660 as you notice how that's happening you 944 00:39:50,930 --> 00:39:48,670 can see what's happening and you can 945 00:39:54,030 --> 00:39:50,940 then begin to deconstruct it and in that 946 00:39:56,490 --> 00:39:54,040 deconstructing we just return back to 947 00:40:01,290 --> 00:39:56,500 that what I called that sense of being 948 00:40:04,140 --> 00:40:01,300 pure self whatever and there you start 949 00:40:07,470 --> 00:40:04,150 meeting something which I think can be 950 00:40:10,980 --> 00:40:07,480 given you know the name Devine it meets 951 00:40:13,050 --> 00:40:10,990 that sort of idea of the divine in many 952 00:40:15,660 --> 00:40:13,060 ways of that sense it is the peace of 953 00:40:20,609 --> 00:40:15,670 God there's that love of God it is 954 00:40:22,849 --> 00:40:20,619 omnipresent always there unchanging it 955 00:40:25,740 --> 00:40:22,859 is forgiving all those qualities and 956 00:40:28,109 --> 00:40:25,750 then you know in some traditions you 957 00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:28,119 would then make that a contact with 958 00:40:34,319 --> 00:40:32,319 something outside you beyond you that 959 00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:34,329 sort of God or it is something that is 960 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:36,430 transcendent within you how you 961 00:40:41,819 --> 00:40:38,410 interpret that I think varies within 962 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:41,829 your culture but I think that is that is 963 00:40:47,250 --> 00:40:44,890 the universal experience the universal 964 00:40:49,660 --> 00:40:47,260 awakening of realizing 965 00:40:52,799 --> 00:40:49,670 almost everything we're looking for in 966 00:40:56,890 --> 00:40:52,809 essence is already there in ourselves 967 00:40:58,930 --> 00:40:56,900 but it's veiled by the thinking the 968 00:41:00,849 --> 00:40:58,940 planning the doing the wanting the 969 00:41:03,970 --> 00:41:00,859 wishing the hoping the avoiding and all 970 00:41:07,870 --> 00:41:03,980 the stuff we get into fills the mind up 971 00:41:10,780 --> 00:41:07,880 and that very quiet level of peace 972 00:41:13,170 --> 00:41:10,790 contentment is just veiled then we don't 973 00:41:16,690 --> 00:41:13,180 notice it and that to me where is where 974 00:41:19,450 --> 00:41:16,700 the contemplation comes in of just being 975 00:41:23,020 --> 00:41:19,460 willing to sit and notice what's 976 00:41:24,730 --> 00:41:23,030 actually going on so Peter it's been 977 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:24,740 quite a ride that you're on and you're 978 00:41:29,230 --> 00:41:27,650 obviously still going strong what kind 979 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:29,240 of projects are you working on now any 980 00:41:33,809 --> 00:41:31,970 books I know you still write I read a 981 00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:33,819 post recently in The Huffington Post 982 00:41:42,609 --> 00:41:37,250 what's going on with you right now too 983 00:41:45,849 --> 00:41:42,619 many things I I'm working on a new video 984 00:41:47,410 --> 00:41:45,859 on the primacy of consciousness I've got 985 00:41:49,049 --> 00:41:47,420 a video on YouTube which is just a 986 00:41:51,250 --> 00:41:49,059 lecture I gave a few years ago around 987 00:41:53,530 --> 00:41:51,260 ten minute lecture which is sort of gone 988 00:41:55,990 --> 00:41:53,540 viral it's got over third of a million 989 00:41:58,750 --> 00:41:56,000 hits on the primacy of consciousness 990 00:42:00,400 --> 00:41:58,760 which was not made for you know it's a 991 00:42:02,319 --> 00:42:00,410 good video it's just me lecturing with 992 00:42:04,289 --> 00:42:02,329 slides and things but it's got so much 993 00:42:06,339 --> 00:42:04,299 good response I'm now working on 994 00:42:09,069 --> 00:42:06,349 collapsing that down to something like a 995 00:42:12,130 --> 00:42:09,079 20 minute video really refining the 996 00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:12,140 argument taking it deeper and producing 997 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:14,720 a whole lot of new visuals to go with it 998 00:42:18,460 --> 00:42:16,010 that that's what I'm currently working 999 00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:18,470 on great I've seen that video yeah it's 1000 00:42:22,839 --> 00:42:20,480 great this is gonna be a remake of it 1001 00:42:25,329 --> 00:42:22,849 and a refining of it and trying to make 1002 00:42:27,220 --> 00:42:25,339 it a lot more pop I think people love it 1003 00:42:30,210 --> 00:42:27,230 I want to go for sort of more popular 1004 00:42:33,069 --> 00:42:30,220 outreach with the animation things I'm 1005 00:42:34,510 --> 00:42:33,079 I've got some new meditation courses I'm 1006 00:42:36,579 --> 00:42:34,520 doing online I've got one which has been 1007 00:42:38,859 --> 00:42:36,589 quite popular what could make an 1008 00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:38,869 advanced version of that I've got a 1009 00:42:43,569 --> 00:42:41,510 whole I talked about books I'm not sort 1010 00:42:45,460 --> 00:42:43,579 of writing books so much these days it 1011 00:42:47,380 --> 00:42:45,470 takes so long to do them and there's a 1012 00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:47,390 whole publishing cycle the promotion 1013 00:42:53,319 --> 00:42:49,730 cycle and things are changing so fast 1014 00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:53,329 I'm working on doing just going either 1015 00:42:58,660 --> 00:42:55,520 straight to audiobook or straight to 1016 00:43:00,290 --> 00:42:58,670 e-book on several subjects I've got one 1017 00:43:02,780 --> 00:43:00,300 on letting go which 1018 00:43:05,390 --> 00:43:02,790 is halfway done book on letting go 1019 00:43:09,350 --> 00:43:05,400 another book which is almost a sequel to 1020 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:09,360 that on seeking but how the how the 1021 00:43:14,330 --> 00:43:12,210 seeking self arises in consciousness and 1022 00:43:17,770 --> 00:43:14,340 just an understanding of how pure 1023 00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:17,780 consciousness in a way separates into a 1024 00:43:22,010 --> 00:43:20,310 separate sense of self and the rest of 1025 00:43:26,090 --> 00:43:22,020 the world and how that separate sense of 1026 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:26,100 self ends up seeking something so that's 1027 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:28,050 something I'm excited by myself at the 1028 00:43:33,860 --> 00:43:30,930 moment just so people know if someone's 1029 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:33,870 interested in your online meditation 1030 00:43:37,940 --> 00:43:36,330 training what's the easiest way for them 1031 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:37,950 to find you find that is through your 1032 00:43:41,810 --> 00:43:40,170 website the easiest way to find anything 1033 00:43:45,260 --> 00:43:41,820 of mine is through my website which is 1034 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:45,270 Peter Russell calm and just make sure 1035 00:43:48,110 --> 00:43:46,770 you have two hours of the Russell 1036 00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:48,120 because otherwise you end up on some 1037 00:43:51,650 --> 00:43:49,110 typo squatter 1038 00:43:53,780 --> 00:43:51,660 but it's Peter it's Peter Russell just 1039 00:43:56,180 --> 00:43:53,790 my name Peter Russell with two hours on 1040 00:43:58,430 --> 00:43:56,190 the Russell and there you can access the 1041 00:44:02,240 --> 00:43:58,440 meditation course there's links to all 1042 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:02,250 my videos my blogs everything you'll 1043 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:04,170 find it through the site in one way or 1044 00:44:10,310 --> 00:44:07,530 another my newsletter everything that's 1045 00:44:12,860 --> 00:44:10,320 the portal to access your stuff on 1046 00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:12,870 YouTube whatever it is and if you're on 1047 00:44:17,660 --> 00:44:15,510 my newsletter then you get notifications 1048 00:44:20,270 --> 00:44:17,670 of new things as they come out or you 1049 00:44:23,180 --> 00:44:20,280 subscribe to my youtube channel whatever 1050 00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:23,190 I've been to the website there's just a 1051 00:44:28,010 --> 00:44:25,920 vast amount of information there are 1052 00:44:29,540 --> 00:44:28,020 some great stuff in those YouTube videos 1053 00:44:31,790 --> 00:44:29,550 you mentioned are definitely worth 1054 00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:31,800 watching so I hope people check those 1055 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:34,800 out as well so Peter thanks again for 1056 00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:36,810 joining me it's been great talking to 1057 00:44:40,910 --> 00:44:38,480 you on sceptical I know we've kind of 1058 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:40,920 meandered around some different topics 1059 00:44:46,850 --> 00:44:43,650 but I guess I was serving my own needs 1060 00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:46,860 there of interest in this idea of the 1061 00:44:51,350 --> 00:44:48,510 intersection between science and 1062 00:44:52,910 --> 00:44:51,360 meditation in between the the paradigm 1063 00:44:55,730 --> 00:44:52,920 shifts that you've pointed out with 1064 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:55,740 consciousness that's been great I mean I 1065 00:44:59,510 --> 00:44:57,210 don't mind wandering that I love it I 1066 00:45:02,000 --> 00:44:59,520 think we've covered a lot of good stuff 1067 00:45:04,820 --> 00:45:02,010 and we could go on for hours on any of 1068 00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:04,830 it but it's been great thanks again to 1069 00:45:09,170 --> 00:45:06,510 Peter Russell for joining me today on 1070 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:09,180 skeptic oh one question to tee up from 1071 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:10,410 this interview and I'm going to circle 1072 00:45:13,339 --> 00:45:12,210 back and hit this question a couple 1073 00:45:16,489 --> 00:45:13,349 times on upcoming 1074 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:16,499 and that is do we need to rethink some 1075 00:45:20,809 --> 00:45:18,930 of our basic assumptions about science 1076 00:45:23,509 --> 00:45:20,819 like this measurement issue that I was 1077 00:45:27,229 --> 00:45:23,519 talking about given what we now know 1078 00:45:29,660 --> 00:45:27,239 about consciousness is this the elephant 1079 00:45:32,269 --> 00:45:29,670 in the room is that we can't really 1080 00:45:35,539 --> 00:45:32,279 measure much of anything in science if 1081 00:45:36,469 --> 00:45:35,549 we can't measure consciousness is 1082 00:45:38,509 --> 00:45:36,479 consciousness 1083 00:45:41,180 --> 00:45:38,519 the asterisk at the end of our 1084 00:45:43,699 --> 00:45:41,190 measurements does that fundamentally 1085 00:45:46,729 --> 00:45:43,709 change science in some way that we 1086 00:45:49,009 --> 00:45:46,739 haven't fully recognized you can tell 1087 00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:49,019 that's my proposition as much as it is a 1088 00:45:53,089 --> 00:45:50,880 question but I'd love to get your 1089 00:45:54,620 --> 00:45:53,099 feedback and your thoughts on it of 1090 00:45:59,180 --> 00:45:54,630 course the place to do that is at The 1091 00:46:01,579 --> 00:45:59,190 Skeptical website at ske PTI koat.com 1092 00:46:03,529 --> 00:46:01,589 there you'll find links to all of our 1093 00:46:06,349 --> 00:46:03,539 previous shows that you can download for 1094 00:46:08,569 --> 00:46:06,359 free or subscribe through iTunes you can 1095 00:46:10,729 --> 00:46:08,579 also find an email Facebook link to me 1096 00:46:12,859 --> 00:46:10,739 and then the link to the forum or the 1097 00:46:14,569 --> 00:46:12,869 comment section the website where you 1098 00:46:16,849 --> 00:46:14,579 can join in a discussion with other 1099 00:46:19,759 --> 00:46:16,859 people and tell us what you think a 1100 00:46:22,910 --> 00:46:19,769 number of interesting shows coming up 1101 00:46:24,829 --> 00:46:22,920 many are piling up in my inbox I'm just 1102 00:46:27,559 --> 00:46:24,839 having trouble getting them out on time 1103 00:46:30,439 --> 00:46:27,569 I have other stuff going on but I will 1104 00:46:32,839 --> 00:46:30,449 at least stay with this once every other 1105 00:46:36,529 --> 00:46:32,849 week scheduled and hopefully slip a 1106 00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:36,539 couple more in as well also making nice 1107 00:46:42,739 --> 00:46:39,599 progress on the book and hope to have 1108 00:46:45,499 --> 00:46:42,749 more information on that for you shortly